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The Sorehand Chronicles: The best RSI
info anywhere, from the people who've "been there, done that!"
Sorehand, by
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Subject: Re: Wrist pain
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Bob...I would like to read more on your presentation. My approach to
prevention of MSD's is a wholistic one. The responsibility for prevention
rests on the worker and on the employer.
I have been an ergonomist for 15
years and love every minute I spend in this profession but I have realized
in the past three years that just providing an adjustable chair and an
ergonomically correct workstation will not solve the MSD problem.
Workers have a responsibility to consume 64 oz of water each day, to learn and
perform stretching and warm-up exercises throughout the day, to avoid the
"overuse" of caffine which strips the moisture from their systems, to assure
that they eat nutritious meals and supplement themselves where the diet does
not adequately supply the nutrients they need, and to make sure they are
getting the proper amount of rest so that they are able to achieve the deep
sleep cycles where their blood is able to get out to their extremities and
bath and heal the muscle and connective tissue.
Granted, all people are not
capable of that because of physical problems that they have, but most people
are capable of taking charge of their physical well being and often choose
not to do the right things. I believe there is a responsibility for taking
care of ones self and that the efforts will prevent many of the MSD problems
that are occuring now days. We have to get smarter in the areas of wellness
and prevention and we need to resolve to do the right things for
ourselves......we can make many wellness decisions that our employers do not
any control over.....we need to make those right decisions and at the same
time urge our employers to support us by making smarter decisions on "good
ergonomics" wneh designing and outfitting our working environment. I
encourage my fellow workers to take the right steps in wellness and
nutrition and we remind each other each day about doing the right things for
our physical health. The road to reduced MSD's is broad and there is no
silver bullet that will make everything better.......it takes the synergy of
everybody involved.....working together....and let's take the small steps to
do those things that are good for us physically as soon as
possible....water, no tobacco, healthy meals, aerobic exercise, weight
within 15 lbs of recommended body weight, we are masters of our own destiny
if we just grab the wheel and start directing a course toward what is for
our best us.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 00:08:09 -0700
Subject: Re: Best way to approach employer? Persuasion Arguments
Hi Diana;
Well, since nobody on the ergonomics/human factors side has risen to answer your
question, I'll take a stab at it, if only to get discussion going. First let me
say Good for you! for even getting the numbers for your workplace. Gathering
facts is the essential first step. The more you can get people interested &
involved, the better your probability of success.
I had the pleasure of seeing David Alexander of Auburn Engineers make a
presentation recently. He's developed a very polished pitch to get management on
board; his clients include DuPont, Exxon, Sara Lee, OSHA, Maytag, and so forth
-- the big companies.
They have a website at http://www.ergopage.com/
He said succinctly, "The language of business is money." So he pitches companies
on the economics of ergonomics. He tells them that un-ergonomic workplaces
affect the quality of their product or service, in addition to the costs of
worker injuries. He said that in addition to the direct costs of WC cases
(benefits, medical care) and indirect costs (training temp replacement, lost
productivity) which are 0.5 to 2 times direct WC costs -- there are also
performance costs which can be 2 to 10 times the WC costs. You see, when
workplaces are resdesigned to fit the workers comfortably, the result is usually
a streamlined & more productive workplace. Two bottom lines -- please credit him
if you use these:
"Ergonomics is keeping experienced personnel in correct position, working
efficiently, and with high quality; Ergonomics is the utilization of people, and
people are a fundamental component of production and service."
From a completely different angle, the AFL-CIO used to sell little $5 manuals on
how to organize your workplace to Stop the Pain. Alas, I no longer see the
report offered at http://www.aflcio.org and can't seem to put my hand on mine.
But I'm sure that touching base with as many people as possible is part of any
longterm strategy. That means that you'd be wise to keep talking to the union
about what they're doing in the shop, and what you're doing in the office --
just kind of casually, sharing info -- and the union might eventually get used
to the idea that the office really is part of the shop.
A last suggestion: the second annual International RSI Awareness Day will be
next February 28. See http://www.ctdrn.org/rsiday It's not too early to start
talking about having some kind of display or presentation at your workplace.
You're in PA as I recall, and I just heard that the PFIW has had to let its
executive director go for lack of funds to pay him. : ( One way to liven up RSI
Day or Workers Memorial Day in April is to print up "Spot the Hazard" stickers
and invite co-workers to slap them on awkward workstations or equipment.
Hope this starts the discussion. All IMO, FWIW, of course. Good luck.
cheers, Penney
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 13:24:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Sit/Stand Chairs
Stool - Amotek/Lusa 425-216 1060 maroon
http://www.amotek.com
Stool - SitonIT/Transit 4.0b Kenmare Cumin
http://www.sitonit.net/
both offer seating with height range necessary for sit/stand.
We typically use fixed height workstations...set at standing height
with one of the chairs listed above for the issue listed below....bob
I'm looking into buying a sit/stand chair for one of our employees who
will be undergoing back surgery. After returning to work following the initial
recovery period, he will not be able to sit and work for several months. Since a
large portion of his job involves data entry, we are looking at an
electrically operated height-a justable workstation, but I haven't been terribly
impressed with the few standing chairs I've seen. His duties are varied:
keyboarding, writing, answering the phone.
Has anyone on this list had any experiences (positive or negative) with
this arrangement? What chairs do you recommend (and what vendors)? I've seen
the offerings from Alimed and Office Organix, so far.
TIA,
Joe
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 13:27:23 -0600
Subject: Re: adjustable height table
Carol...based upon Denny Ankrum's research on the point of vergence and
informal evaluations I have undertaked over the past year...try to set up a
computer eye point relationship that has the top of the monitor about 8-10
inches above the table's top surface...yes that gives you a seemingly
extreme downlook but according to Denny's work it is much better than
looking straight ahead....I cut a hole in a standard table and built a shelf
that allows the monitor to rest at the proper height. ..try to vary the
adjustment of the chair's back to allow different thigh - trunk angles of
90 to 127 degrees. If your chin is jutting out due to a neck posture that
has head tilted back you are probably locating your monitor too high above
the table surface. I find a low monitor position and keyboard on the lap
with eyepoint about 40 to 46 inches away from the screen surface is most
comfortable.... elbows in to sides and elbows - forearms open to appx 100
degrees and lightly resting on chair adjustable arm. You might need to
increase the font to about a 14 point, but with controlled ambient lighting
less than 40 footcandles you should have a comfortable environment.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 19:14:50 -0700
From: Greg
Subject: Re: monitor position
I think that it is worth noting a couple of things. First of all, the
individul characteristics of any situation (i.e. person and their
environment) are NEVER the same and this variation can be quite profound
from one person to another. Secondly, issues like monitor height can be a
lot more complex than they seem.
I am not a big fan of external rule based ergonomics (e.g., monitor should
be this high). These rules run counter to the basic idea of ergonomics by
putting an external fixture at the center of the relationship and not the
person. Internal ergonomic rules are OK (e.g., the arm should be within 20
degrees of the torso during sustained manual activity) as long as they
respect individual differences in how the body adapts or maladapts over
time. This is why "standards" for such things is a large concern since it
would eliminate the proper, flexible application of ergonomic concepts. Of
course we live in a world that is run on inflexible rules, but that is a
whole other post!!
With monitor position, we must remember that the position of the eyes
determines the posture of the upper spine. We should also remember that
visual biases can vary significantly between individuals. Add to this the
different types of software that place work at different parts of a screen,
screen size, screen type, keyboarding style, the presence or absence of
source documents, lighting, etc., etc. Not to mention, as Larry did, the
presence of bifocals and other graded lense systems.
It can be very complex and has to be assessed on an individual basis. I
spend a large portion of my work station assessments looking carefully at
this interaction because it often drives the total posture of the
iindividual in a very fundamental way.
From my experience, monitors actually tend to be too low and too close to
people in many cases (not all).
One final note. I really despise (in a scientific way!) fluorescent
lighting. I realize that it is energy efficient, but it is a flickering
light source and between that and a standard monitor, it can be more than
the human brain cares to process, especially when it is out of phase
(virtually guaranteed) with the flicker on the monitor.
Have a great day everyone,
Greg Hart
----------
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:13:12 -0800
From: Cathie Frye
Subject: Re: No one uses adaptive technology!
Ian,
Sorry I'm so late responding to your question. I've been using a
Metamorphosis butterfly keyboard for several months. I have thoracic outlet
syndrome, which affects my shoulders, neck and both arms (bilateral). The
metamorphosis keyboard tray is higher than a regular keyboard tray, but it
is tilted upward at about a 15 degree angle (I think). You rest your entire
forearm on the tray. It comes with an optional gel pad that covers the
lower portion of the tray, and I HIGHLY recommend purchasing it. I found
this configuration with a goldtouch split keyboard (and now a kinesis
keyboard) takes away most of the strain of holding my arms and shoulders in
position to type and use a pointing device. For this configuration to work,
I had to order a special chair that has a much higher back than a regular
"task" chair. I need a guide (headrest) that lets me rest my neck in
"neutral" position. Otherwise I get neck spasms and shoulder spasms.
According to the tray manufacturer, you are supposed to tilt your chair back
beyond 90 degrees, and your monitor should be lower than conventional wisdom
suggests. For me, this doesn't work well, because it strains the back of my
neck. I had to return the monitor to a higher position. I do sometimes
tilt the chair back a little, but more for variety than anything.
Being short, and having a desk that doesn't adjust downward far enough, I
have to use a footrest, also. The sit-stand desk (when it finally arrives)
should make it possible for me to eliminate the footrest, which I don't find
terribly comfortable.
One thing I've noticed that could be a problem for some users: It is
difficult (and for me painful) to use a mouse with your elbow resting on a
surface. I had given up mice and switched to a tracball and touchpad before
getting the butterfly keyboard tray, so this hasn't caused me much grief.
Hope I've answered your questions. Please feel free to follow-up with more
specific questions if I've left out something you'd like to know.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 11:58:01 -0800
Subject: warm gloves
Hi, All,
I recommend trying www.feri.com/llgloves (Linda Lorraine Gloves in San
Francisco) for custom-made & already-made gloves in various
finger/fingerless styles & lengths. If you live close enough to try on
samples, they cost less. I got a sample pair of over-the-elbow,
short-cropped-finger gloves in a light, woven wool lined with slightly
stretchy cotton, in black. Except for being a little loose at the very
top, which I could easily fix somehow, they're perfect. I'm not sure
what they'd cost custom-made, but the price range for her gloves is
usally $20-$50. Her workmanship is excellent & she has a large selection
of stylish fabrics. I've worn them day & night, indoors & out, for a
couple weeks, & I think my arms & hands feel better. They definitely
feel warmer! We're all trying to save money on utilities, so we can work
a little less & save our hands, especially in California where, without
any hooplah, gas prices have just doubled in 2 months & are still going
up with no price cap.
All the best to you,
Nancy
-------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 17:15:37 -0800
From: Lilly Walters
Subject: keyboard control pedals
>I know there are keyboards that come with an optional foot-pedal for
>clicking on things. I believe it would be nice to have a foot mouse. I
>don't know if one exists, any information would be nice. I am to the point
>where I am afraid to use a mouse because I get a sharp pain in my wrist when
I do, I
Go to http://www.aboutonehandtyping.com/resourses/html
scroll down
to Keyboard Control Pedals. BTW, I asked this question of several
lists, and could not find anybody actually using them. But I was
able to get the pain away from using a track ball by putting my elbow
on a big cushy pillow, and the track ball down low on a drop down
rack. Then I made a bean bag, and elevated the BACK end of the track
ball, so the mouse is at a 45 degree angle. All my paid went away
:))
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 20:07:01 -0800
From: Mark Kornheiser
Subject:
we carry the no-hands mouse. That is two pedals
that sit on the floor. One controls the mouse
movement in a 360 degree movement of one foot.
The other pedal is the button clicks. Push with
your toes and it gives a left click, with your
heel is the right click. You can use this to
double click as well.
The pedals are $250.
Please let me know if you need more info. on this.
Mark Kornheiser
A1 Productivity Products
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 11:55:30 -0700
From: Peoter
Subject: the new comfort keyboard is really great!
I tried a comfort keyboard a year ago and didn't like the stiff feeling =
of the keys. A few weeks ago I tried out their new model and it has a =
much lighter touch. I bought one and now love it and think that it is =
the supreme keyboard avaialble on the market today. =20
In case your'e not familiar with it, it is the one that has the separate =
pieces that can be configured in any position and can be "tented" up so =
that you can even type with your hands vertically. =20
The keyboard seems to have captured the best of both worlds, it has a =
very light touch and it takes very little force to activate, yet even if =
you hit it hard it will not bottom out and is squishy. It doesn't have =
that satisfying clicky feel, but you get used to it very quicly. I =
spoke to one of the designers on the phone several times and he said =
they have made a lot of effort over the last few years working on the =
touch of the keys, and that the latest model is a big improvement over =
the last. Although I have to admit that sometimes my hands feel tired =
after using it, probably because I don't concentrate hard enough on =
typing lightly. =20
BTW, this is another thing I like about the comfort, I have gotten a lot =
of personal service from one of the engineers who has been developing =
the keyboard for 10 years. Every problem that has come up he has been =
able to explain to me how to fix it. His name is Charles and he knows =
me by name and is interested in hearing my opinions and feedback.=20
Recently I have also sung the praises of the Pace keyboard. All in all =
I think the comfort is better because it is more configurable, they keys =
do not bottom out, and it is programmable. The pace keyboard perhaps is =
more fun to type on, is maybe a bit faster and fits more comfortably in =
your lap ( the comfort is best on a keyboard tray although I did use it =
on my lap for several weeks). The biggest downside to the pace (I have =
called and spoken to them about it and have little interest in changing =
it) is that the keys bottom out and with time it can be very irritating =
to your finger. There needs to be a squishy back end to absorb the =
shock. The pace is also really not that configurable, but probably good =
enough for most people. =20
Ideally one should use different keyboards, I own one of each of these =
and am pretty happy. Both can be ordered from TEOS of Seattle (I am =
not afilliated with them but am a regular customer of theirs and have =
gotten a lot of good service from them, the same goes for Pace and =
Comfort). =20
If anyone has any questions please send me a note. I hope that some of =
you will find this information useful.=20
PS, I am also now using a Logitech marble trackball and really like it. =
It is just as functional as a mouse, although I have not used it long =
enough to say that it is less irritating to my hands, rotating devices =
is always a good diea. Both Wes from TEOS and my occupational therapist =
reccomending this brand of track ball. For one, it is symmetric and =
therefore can be used with both hands. =20
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:02:02 -0800
From: Peter
Subject: Re: Data Hand Keyboard, etc.
I know about both. I own a datahand, it is a fine product. If you decide
to buy, mine is for sale, in perfect condition. I have also tested out the
chair attachments, don't waste your time with that, it is a gimic. If you
have any specific questions about either let me know.
I recommend a Pace keyboard used in your lap. My hand pain was so bad that
I thought I was going to have to change careers. All the injections and
pills and soakings in cold water wouldn't make the pain go away. Then I
tried the pace keyboard and now I'm almost completely cured. When I do feel
pain it is because I work on other keyboards.
You need to try this keyboard, it is much less than either of the two that
you have mentioned so the risk is less. Having a keyboard rest in your lap
is the most natural and comfortable position of all. This is my experience
and the reccomendation of the doctor and OT I saw. A keyboard tray is also
good but lap is better. It can be a hassle though, but well worth it. The
datahand comes with a lap tray, but before you make the radical move to the
Datahand, try out the Pace.
Try a place called TEOS in Seattle. I have no affiliation but am a loyal
customer. They have a showroom tha saved me from being crippled. It is
where I first tried the Pace. I borrowed one on a trial and purchased it a
week later. Now I have two. They have many others there to try out, almost
every major ergonomic brand. If you're problems are bad enough, fly to
Seattle to try it out. If you're willing to drop 900$ on a Datahand then it
sounds like you're at the point where dishing out the money for planefare is
worth it.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:31:02 -0400
From: Elaine
Subject: Re: Datahand
Thank you, Greg, for your input. It helps.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 10:54 PM
Subject: Datahand
> >
> >I`m trying the DataHand, but have serious reservations because of not
> >being able to move the shoulders, arms and hands freely. Being more
> >costly, it is a bigger risk to keep.
> >
>
> I just finished reviewing the Datahand keyboard. Very expensive with very
> little upside and large potential downside. I agree with above concerns.
> Overall the keyboard is way to constraining both in terms of micro
> movements at the hand and for the entire posture of the torso and upper
> limbs.
>
> Over $2000 CDN.
>
> Greg Hart
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 07:21:40 -0700
From: Jeff
Subject: Re: Maltron and Kinesis
I tried the Kinesis for little more than a week and sent back. It definitely
will take a few weeks to get used to typing with the it. The main reason I
sent back was at it didn't seem to offer any great ergonomic benefit for my
problem. I much prefer a tent style keyboard this allows me to keep my arms
and a less rotated position when typing.
Although I bought a gold touch keyboard instead of the Pace I prefer it over
the kinesis and probably would prefer the Pace over a kinesis as well. Since
everyone has different RSI problem though it might be worth trying since you
can send it back if you don't like it.
Thanks
jrc
Note: This message was created using voice recognition software.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 11:59:12 -0700
From: Katie
Subject: Re: Maltron and Kinesis
Hi Elaine,
I have a Kinesis Classic keyboard that I use at work. I think that it is a
very comforable keyboard to use, and it takes very little time to adjust.
It was only about 3 days I think till I could go at about my normal pace,
but I am not much of a touch typist. The keys are all just about where you
expect them to be, except that for me, they are now directly under my
fingers instead of being where I have to reach to get to them. The big
difference is that the control, alt, space, backspace, delete, and movement
keys are all in the middle and so your thumb gets a workout. I have the
foot pedal for times when I feel I am using my thumbs too much. I like the
Kinesis and I find that I can type longer with less pain, and fewer after
effects. I also use voice recognition, and I am learning to take things
slower and stress less about what I do at work, and I think that's also very
important. I also have a regular keyboard at work for a different computer
and I can say with out any hesitation that the Kinesis is miles better for
me.
Good luck,
Katie.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: Maltron and Kinesis
At 09:39 PM 4/10/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>Hello,
>
>Does anyone have experiences to relate on either the Maltron or the
>Kinesis keyboard?
>
>Are they a pain to get used to?
I had little trouble getting used to a Kinesis even though the
key columns are straight and not staggered.
For ease of changing over, I think the Pace keyboard excels because
it's similar to a standard keyboard and put on a couple of movable
bases.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:24:39 -0800
From: Roger
Subject: Keyboard assessment??
Hi Anne et al,
I presume that this pain clinic recommended the Data Hand keyboard
because they had heard about the manufacturer's claims that it requires
less finger movement to operate, and there are people that use it
successfully, since a number of them have said as much on this SOREHAND
site. Having evaluated the Datahand, and every other keyboard available
some years ago, I opted to get the Maltron, and have been very glad I did.
I am not sure whether this pain clinic to which you refer is even aware of
the Maltron, since very few people seem to know of it, in my experience.
More information is available at:
http://64.4.8.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=EN&lah=9e67edd7a2cc7193fe2fb4566b830906&lat=977579008&hm___action=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2eteleprint%2ecom
and I would encourage anyone interested in a truly ergonomic keyboard, that
reduces finger movement dramatically, though it does require a few days to
learn a good key layout, to take a serious look. As some of this group
already know, I have no connection to the company, except as a highly
satisfied customer. I do have some training and experience in ergonomics,
too, so this recommendation is made with good bases.
Good luck in your search.
Roger
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 18:55:03 -0800
From: pshardy
Subject: Re: Ergonomics Seminars/training/workshops
Mark, National Institute on Safety and Health has a free catalog full of
videos, books, films, etc. they included a copy in with some printed
materials I had requested. It is available through their web page,
Niosh.gov (or just Niosh will get you there). Also, they have training
available for businesses, if I remember correctly, or access to training
through their own trainers.... worth checking out ...
Peggy
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 10:51:25 -0500
From: Bob Morency
Subject: Re: Workstation Setup
We have lots of computer users, including myself that find sit/stand
workstations the easiest way to increase comfort. I find it so
comfortable I set my home computer up sit/stand. We usually start with
raising the worksurface up to standing elbow height, supplying a
drafting type stool with adequate set pan height, and a tall foot rest.
The user can then move from seated from standing....as I just did by
sliding off the stool. VDT height is always driven by head
position....so it doesn't change from a seated or standing position. As
long as the users elbows are at the point of operation (POOH) VDT height
doesn't shange. Unfortunately most of our info is behind a
firewall....although I'll send pic's to any one interested....bob
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 10:49:30 -0600
Subject: Re: Workstation Setup
comfortable I set my home computer up sit/stand. We usually start with
>raising the worksurface up to standing elbow height, supplying a
>drafting type stool with adequate set pan height, and a tall foot rest.
>The user can then move from seated from standing....as I just did by
>sliding off the stool. VDT height is always driven by head
I use a sit/stand setup and I like it a lot. But I have a caution:
make sure you can slide off the chair easily. When I first set this
up I was using an elderly elevated lab chair where the padding on
the leading edge had pretty much gone. Sliding off this chair
meant a metal edge rubbed my leg. I didn't notice anything until
one evening my wife said, "what happened to YOUR LEG?!" and I
twisted around to see a huge, ghastly bruise on the back of
my thigh, looking like a cannonball had hit me.
Now I have a gas-spring equipped lab chair that is basically a
well-padded office chair with extra height.
----------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 10:02:21 -0700
I had great benefit from your book, even though I presently am out of work
due to my RSI injury. I would like to recommend the break reminder program
from RSIguard, www.rsiguard.com. I have tried Stretchbreak, Workpace, and
some Mac programs, but RSIguard is by far the best. Especially it's ability
to click the mouse for you is invaluable!
Peter
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 15:29:28 EDT
From: Ann
Subject: Re: Arm rests
The best chairs have armrests that are height adjustable (among other
features). Basically, you want to be able to use the armrests for resting,
not working. You shouldn't lean on them when you are using the computer, but
when you take microbreaks it's nice to be able to lay your arms lightly on
the armrests. Armrests that are too high can get in the way of free arm
movement when you are using the computer, and they can force you to push up
on your shoulders or lean on your elbows, all of which can lead to further
problems with your elbows, neck and shoulders.
The armrests on our chairs at work were definitely too high for me. I had
one of our facilities people lower the armrests on my chair simply by
inserting shims and using longer screws where they attached to the bottom of
the chair seat. A $0.39 solution to an ergonomic problem.
Ann
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 13:30:57 -0700
From: Peoter
Subject: Re: Arm rests
The problem is that if the rests are there most people will use them when
they work. When you are taking microbreaks your arms should fall down to
your side where you can shake them out. After not using arm rests for a
year I can say that, at least for me, arm rests serve no useful purpose.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:23:14 -0700
From: Peoter
Subject: Re: DataHand
The typing in a low position is important, this was the main thing I was
doing wrong for many years, I was typing on a keyboard placed too high.
Your arms should fall comfortably down at your side and your forearms should
be level and wrists straight.
www.rsiprogram.com
Revised
Nov
21,
2000
