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The Sorehand Chronicles: The best RSI
info anywhere, from the people who've "been there, done that!" |
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Copyright for all materials belongs to the original authors. Do not repost or reprint without permission from the author. Search for the author by joining Sorehand and posting a message or searching for their name.
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What you'll see below is that there's a 100% range in results from great to horrible, for chiropractic, depending primarily on the practitioner, but we feel it also depends on the nature of the underlying injury as well. JB
------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 10:16:19 -0600 Subject: Re: T4 Syndrome and spinal manipulation/chiropractic Hi Anne, (This turned into a two-for-one posting, about the questions about chiropractic treatment too.) T4 Syndrome seems to be a phrase used more by chiropractors than anyone else, and also by PTs who do spinal manipulation. It sums up the fact that a manipulation to the T4 area [the fourth thoracic vertrebra, the spine between the shoulder blades, for others reading this thread who don't know what T4 means] will sometimes clear up arm problems. So your doctor might say "what?" When I've heard chiropractors or PTs talk about it, they tend to think in terms of the nerves in the area--the spinal cord is negotiating a particularly narrow part of its passageway in the spinal column there, and most people casting about for an explanation tend to think in terms of the parasympathetic/sympathetic chain that is outside the spine and anchored down at some points in this area. (E.g., since we've just been talking about him, the adverse neural tension people, like David Butler in Mobilisation of the Nervous System, talk about these things.) I think of it, and have experienced it, more in functional terms. Being frozen there (not permitting movement, muscles being tight) really affects the comfort and ease of movement of the arms, in my (Feldenkrais) experience. To connect to another thread here, what happens in a spinal manipulation ("adjustment") is that there is a big and temporary reduction in muscle tone in the area--so a manipulation to T4 would give a window of opportunity where movement could come into that part of the back. For me, that makes plenty of sense of the fact that a spinal manipulation in that area can affect arm comfort, without having to go into speculation about the nerves that exit there etc. That factoid about what happens with spinal manipulation is just a factoid--I heard it from Greg and haven't read it anywhere else (which qualifies it for factoid status in my books, nothing personal to Greg). It fits with a lot of what I hear people experience with chiropractic and PT manipulation, and makes sense to me in terms of what I understand about the body. It's a different explanation of what goes on from the subluxation/putting the vertebra back in place explanation. But this idea that they're putting the vertebra "back in place" makes little sense to me, on all levels. It's not what it feels like when they do it, and it doesn't compute physiologically. The idea that it's loosening a joint and that means at least in part affecting the muscle tone around a joint does make some sense to me. Hope this helps, Lynette -----Original Message----- Sent: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:53:50 -0500 To: SOREHAND@ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU Subject: Re: Holistic treatment for tendon and ligament healing Hi, folks, Re Weintraub's book on "Tendon and Ligament Healing": I purchased it months ago when it first was published and was quite disappointed in it. It's full of vague language with little specific help for injured people to use for themselves, other than what Greg Hart listed in his post. Weintraub refers to BMC (BodyMind Centering) and Cranio-sacral methods and strain/counterstrain techniques all over the book but he doesn't really describe what he actually does. The language often goes something like "...using strain/counterstrain techniques I addressed restrictions in the subject's fascia..." - I kept wanting to scream, "OK, what did you really, actually, do??". He also describes his ability to sense the magnetic and electrical quality in peoples' tissues, and I quote from page 62: "I have developed a specific method of normalizing electromagnetic activity that consists of my feeling to discern if there is any sense of a blocked and overactive ("dammed-up") or a deficient electrical quality in the tendon." (no explanation of how this is presented - he just says he can do it). From the next page: "The sensation of elecrical activity is often a tingling, humming, or buzzing feeling of the current. The sensations I discern of magnetic activity in the tissue are somewhat similar, with more of a "pulling" quality. Magnetism is usually sensed as a slower movement/activity than the electricity in the area. The normal electrical pattern of a tendon/ligament is experienced as predominately linear. This may correspond to their parallel fiber arrangement and adaptation to tensile forces. In comparison, the pattern of current through a visceral structure such as the stomach is more diffuse, with more of a rotational component." I have a lot of trouble believing that someone can sense supposed intrinsic magnetic and electrical activity in different tissue parts. Sounds like mumbo-jumbo to me. Sorehanders who know me through the list know I type in a lot of pain. I thought strongly enough that this book is a waste of $20 to spend the time composing this message. Maybe I'll put my copy on Ebay. Regards, Nan ------------------------------
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------------------------------- Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 14:29:52 -0800 Subject: Re: Holistic treatment for tendon and ligament healing Dear Nan, From what you say, I'd have to agree with you. It seems the book is intended for professionals to educate them rather than as a self-help book. Strain-Counterstrain is an osteopatic technique originated by Dr Laurence Jones in the 60's. It is an indirect,i.e. non-forceful or intrusive method of releasing feedback pattern of muscle contraction and joint pain. Vry effective. i've used it for years on my clients with great results. Problem is, not a lot of people use it. the main reason is it takes some time and practice to master and most P.T.s (the predominant students at least at the moment) don't have enough time intheir practice to get used to the technique so they have poor results and discsrd it. A related book,60 Seconds to Pain Relief: the Fold and Hold method is a good self-help primer on the technique though the author doesn't give enough credit where is due IMO.The Jones Institute in Encinitas,Ca is a good source of info. Crania-sacral is a modification of Cranial os! teopathy. See Osteopthic sites and/or med schoos. Be glad to give you info if you are interested. When it comes to fascial restrictions, where the fascial tissue is not moving correctly and is manipulated to release, it is damn hard to give a detaied description of what is happening undeneaththe operator's fingers because we tend to lack approprite vocabulary or the ability to frame a description fast enough to keep track of the tissue changes taking place. A reference would bw John Barnes' P.T., Myofascial Release seminars and training, though it gets a little woo-woo IMO. Whether or not thetr is a sensing of electro-magnetic fields, there are arguably different sensations going on when someone has trained to work with tissue in these ways because part of the training is to "listen" and followthe release of the tissue with the fingers. This listening requires a sharpening of preception and while results are similar, subjective descriptions differ. Maybe when some one hooks someones hands up while they are treating to sensitive devices for measuring vibration, electromagnetic release, etc., we'll be able to speak more definitively. A referenc here might be Dr Leon Chaitow's book: Palpatory Literacy. For my own experience working in what sounds like similar fashions, there is a marked similarity in the "feelings" described. I think also he is using magnetism or electricity as metaphors rather than direct references, but I can't be sure without the text at hand. Also, its msotly old news but interesting to me, so fi you want to sell the book, i'll buy it from you. How much do you want for it? kevin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 13:58:52 -0800 Subject: Re: Chiropractic I agree with Greg. My experience with a chiropractor who believes in the "subluxation theory" was very negative. I started out coming into her office, bent over, and being ushered into a room with an x-ray machine. She took a full body x-ray, with no lead shield whatsoever, and when I asked her how many millirems I was getting, she said, "you don't need to know. it's not much." Before I could protest, she snapped the picture, had me turn to the side and did it again! I was in such a place of victim, coming in with all that pain, that even my background in science couldn't save me. Next, she rushed me onto the table, lay me on my front and in a few seconds, created more pain in my body than I had ever experienced, when she "adjusted" my thoracic spine. I let out the deepest and longest primal scream that I can remember. Luckily for them there was no one in the waiting room. I swear you could hear me out to the street. Then, she got me up, took me to a lower table in the next room and did it again to my pelvis. More screaming, but less painful than the first. Then, she "adjusted my neck", exclaiming, "What happened to your neck?" I was as stiff as a board (having fallen on my head one week earlier while skiing at Alpine). next, come in for a look at a video with a whole bunch of other people. that's when I learned about the "subluxation theory". She pointed me out to the audience, saying she's a scientist and she knows this is "true". I was still in a mess and who was I to argue with her. next, out comes the paperwork. For $25,000, we can "fix" you. I didn't sign. next, come back tomorrow for another adjustment. Now mind you, I was desperate, still in a lot of pain, that even Vicodin from Kaiser wasn't controlling. So back I went. I went back for a total of 8 adjustments, cost $400! on the 7th adjustment, approximately 4 days later, I experienced numbness in my right arm. i went back and told her boss about my arm. He said, "Your problem is that nobody cares about you. I care about you." and gave me a big hug. Yeah, I was feeling pretty low in those days, unable to pipette at work at the lab bench, and facing potential job loss, and dealing with Kaiser who told me there was nothing wrong with me, based on x-rays that were "negative" and blood tests for rheumatoid arthritis that were negative. then, a wonderful thing happened. while I was waiting in a room for that miserable woman to "adjust my neck", which was starting to feel "good" in a funny way, somehow I got lost in the crack. They didn't know I was in there, and I was able to overhear a conversation between a man who had been coming for adjustments, and who was suing the clinic for injuring him, and that boss who told me that nobody cared about me. needless to say, it was a heated discussion. somehow, I heard the message. Get out of here. Leave. Go. Don't say a word. Just go. I did. I got myself out of there. Then the bills started coming. $400. Then, I refused to pay. Then, another bill came with a letter saying that they would forget the whole thing if I paid half of the bill. I sent them $200 and called it quits. But, I should have sued them for what they did to my neck. My arm has never been the same. I went to another chiropractor. This one, just happened to know the last one, and he told me that he went through school with her and he wouldn't let her touch him. period. He was great. He was honest. He looked at my x-rays that she took, and reported that I had 6 lumbar vertebrae, not 5 (which is "normal"), and told me about the triangle of health including diet, exercise, and chiropractic treatments. he also charged $65 for an "adjustment", so I walked and didn't look back. that took me to massage, more bills, and eventually to Feldenkrais work. So in all, it's been a journey and I've learned a lot about myself, and I have no regrets. but, I'm telling this story, because I want to impress on Sorehanders, to be aware when they get involved with chiropractors. There are good ones and there are bad ones. you be the judge. But, if they tell you "you don't need to know", you do. You need to know as much information as you can get to heal from RSI. Elise ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 23:37:39 EST Subject: Re: Chiropractic In a message dated 12/14/00 7:02:00 PM Central Standard Time, << I'm telling this story, because I want to impress on Sorehanders, to be aware when they get involved with chiropractors. There are good ones and there are bad ones. >> I agree with that. There are good chiros and good Drs and bad ones, too. My experience with a "subluxation" chiro was quite the opposite. My chiro had been out of school for 5 years. (he was an insurance adjuster and decided he wanted to help people rather than deny coverage so he changed careers at 35). My chiro had me fill out a health form. When I had trouble writing, he sat down next to me and helped me fill it out. We went back to the room and he asked me questions about my RSI and what treatments I had experienced so far. He had me lie down on the table and he began pressing all over my back...getting a feel of how my spine was set up. He then did an adjustment on my elbow. I havent had much trouble since. The relief was immediate. He then did an adjustment on my neck. I shrieked! Not because of pain...but because for the first time in over a year, I could actually turn my head all the way to the left and right. The relief was immediate. He adjusted my mid and lower back, too. Again, the relief was immediate and so wonderful. My treatments cost $20 a visit. I was there for 20 minutes a visit. Each and every time I went I saw drastic improvement. My elbow has been better than ever....my neck, well, WOW. What a huge difference. I went for 12 sessions, 2-3 times a week depending on my schedule. Once I lost all income, I had to stop going. I have noticed that I am slowly getting worse. Even when I am in full flare I am better than I was months ago. I dont think the issue is whether or not a chiropractor can help. I think the issue is WHICH chiro you choose. Mine had extensive background in RSI. In fact, he sort of specialized in it. Everyone I talked to in the waiting area had RSI and they all had marked improvement. The 1st rib mobilizations were a god send. I can feel it creeping back up and how I wish I could go see this chiro. The only thing he asked was that you pay for the 12 sessions at one time. Then, re-evaluate and see if you felt you needed another 12. There was NO pressure. There were no contracts, just plain old good medical care. As with MD's, some chiros have the gift of healing, some do not. I am not talking about some mystical type of healing. There are people that are book smart and have no common sense. There are physicians whose talent is medicine. There are health care workers that truly care and those that dont. It isnt so much the route you choose as it is who you choose to drive you while you are on it. FWIW, IMO, not a Dr or atty, Anne ------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 09:36:06 EST Subject: One Major part is missing... I am very ashamed at my profession for doing such a poor job at letting the public know that we can help people who suffer from RSI and CTD. I am a chiropractor and I specialize in CTS and acute and chronic disc herniations. I treated one lady who had five surgeries on her hands! She has been battling the crippling effects of her CTS for over 10 years. After 14 treatments she was 70% better! The one thing that most miss is that 95% of sufferers with on-going symptoms have a degenerative condition in their necks! If you have ever seen an arthritic neck x-ray, you understand how this can irritate the spinal nerves that exit from the spine. This is research proven. The median nerve exits from the neck, why aren't doctors checking the neck too? Doesn't that make sense? If you want to turn a light on, you don't go to the lightbulb, you go to the switch! Why aren't people at least consulting with doctors that specialize in the spine and nervous system, chiropractors? Because we have done a poor job educating the public....people and your doctors have no idea we can help you! Either that or they are close-minded, which is a whole other shameful story. I have seen a guy with a 12mm disc herniation reduce back to normal. This is remarkable! The problem is that most people are seeing chiros when all else fails. This, in my opinion, is something that I would like to see change. I would love to see us much higher on the food chain, as far as, "that didn't work, where do I go now?" I want the readers of Sorehand to realize that chiropractic may be able to help you. I want you guys to explore this option. I have gotten too many fantastic stories to keep them from you and to not tell you that I think chiropractic may help you. There is no reason that you should not get a chiro consult if you are still suffering and feel like you have nowhere else to turn. There is no reason to not get a chiro consult if you have even the most minor symptoms in your hand, for that matter. I am sorry to all of you that haven't thought about consulting a chiropractor, or haven't been recommended to see one. That is because MDs and PTs probably either don't know any, or they don't know how effective chiropractic treatment can be for you. Go in, talk to them, let them listen to you and if you feel comfortable, GIVE IT A SHOT! It may be a major eye-opener for you. I hope I helped some people gain a little more hope in my quest to let you know there are more options than just medicine and physical therapy. You have to get to the cause of the problem, which is without question a structural dysfunction. Structural dysfunctions respond to structural changes most readily. This means things like manipulation of injured or misaligned joints which can irritate nerves, active release therapy and ultrasound to hypertonic muscles and connective tissues, as well as icing treatments to battle the inflammation and rnage of motion exercises. Later work-hardening strengthening exercises should be performed. In my opinion, traditional methods do nothing for correcting the cause of CTS. But the sad fact is, that some people wait so long to correct the cause of their problem efficiently and effectively, that surgery is their only option or else they will have major lifelong debilitation. I have tried to remain rather calm here, but I know that most people are missing out on a tremendous opportunity to get their lives back again. So, why don't you call a good chiro in your area and sit down and talk about this? Thanks... Eric, DC ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:10:31 -0800 Subject: Re: One Major part is missing... Dr., I would like to say that I can see that you think chiropractics is the "answer" for people with RSI and CTD. However, not everyone who presents with RSI and CTD have positive x-rays. This lack of "objective" evidence sways traditional physicians to say that RSI and CTD even exisits. Whereas you see RSI and CTD as "structural", my camp (the Feldenkrais Method) sees RSI and CTD as "functional". As more and more people "burn out" their nerves from sitting with their necks "craned" in front of computers and continue to become sedentary and hold static postures, there will be more and more RSI and CTD cases. As a Feldenkrais practitioner, I focus on how a person uses him/herself. I commonly see people with RSI and CTD who exhibit a pattern of strong flexion in the lower back and strong extension in the chest. This is a typical pattern for people who slouch when driving and crane their necks to see through the rear view mirror. I have gone through the entire gamut of RSI. My skiing injury was exacerbated when I started my journey with a chiropractor who adjusted my neck. The "adjustment" lead to chronic pain and numbness down my right, dominant arm and eventually led to job loss. When I was desperate, I went to a second chiropractor, who told me that he knew the first and wouldn't let her touch him. He apparently was in the same program as her. As there are many good chiropractors, there are as many bad ones. Unfortunately, I ran into a bad one and in those days I didn't know how to take care of myself. In spite of my pain and numbness, I went back 7 more times! I had such hope that she could "fix" me. At any rate, my long and painful journey lead me to what really worked for me --- the Feldenkrais Method, which is geared to help people by listening to them, by making agreements with them (without joining in the drama which keeps them injured), by working within their range and not pushing them, as so many practitioners do, and by staying within their comfort zone. A person with RSI needs that more than anything. Until practitioners get it (having a case yourself is a good way to "get it"), people with RSI and CTD will continue to suffer, by going to so-called "experts" who "think" they know what they are doing. Elise ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:33:03 -0800 Subject: Re: One Major part is missing... I did try a Chiro and just got a lot of bills to pay. Could you give me some telephone numbers for the patients who you have treated. I would like to talk to them. Also could you tell where are you located. I would like to meet you in case you are somewhere in the Bay area. Or else do you know of some good chiro in this region Thanx, Nitin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 19:52:00 -0700 Subject: Re: One Major part is missing... Eric wrote: > >I disagree wholeheartedly that for "as there are many good chiropractors, >there are as many bad ones." This is simply completely untrue. Although I >am sorry for your unfortunate encounter with chiropractic, I do not know the >circumstances surrounding your injury and I do not know what protocol was >used. I am also not convinced that the adjustment led to your long term >disability. There are many chiropractors who regularly extend themselves beyond the boundaries of their training. Most chiropractors base their practice upon principles of human function that remain unknown to other professionals and all scientists. There are a few chiropractors who are very responsible and eschew the dogma of the mythology they are taught in school, perhaps you are one of them. > >I am not sure I need to prove myself to you, but I feel like you were taking >some shots at me. I am very confident in my skills and my thorough >evaluation of each new patient and their lifestyles. I am open-minded and if >I feel I cannot help them, I will guide them in the right direction. >Anything that a patient can do to correct the cause of a problem is my >ultimate goal for them, whether it is through my help or someone else's. > >The purpose of my previous note was to tell about another option and share >some stories I have. It was not to blow my own horn, or to portray >chiropractic as "the answer" for peope. > >I am an expert, but I do not "think" (as you put it) that I have all the >answers, no one does, not even you. > The "expert" word always troubles me. What are you an "expert" in? If we know, then we can ask questions and look for input from the perspective of your expertise. As a way of introducing yourself to the list, perhaps you could supply some answers to a few questions: How long have you practised? What is the relevance of "innate"? I ask because it is part of your email address. Since you mentioned cervical disc herniations, how does chiropractic act to reduce herniations? Are there any risks to a patient with identified cervical herniations when receiving adjustments? Do you think that it is possible that cervical manipulation can cause injury to the vertebral arteries as some authorities have claimed? Is it possible to heal problems that don't involve muscles, nerves and bones with chiropractic? Should children receive chiropractic assessment? You rejected the notion that Elise was made worse by chiropractic care, on what basis would you reject that possibility? You mentioned that you are open-minded and that if you can't help someone that you would direct them elsewhere. What other possible referrals would you consider for someone with persistant neck pain and upper extremity symptoms that you were unable to assist? What is your position on vaccination? Thanks for your interest, Eric and welcome to the list. Cordially, Greg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 23:24:09 EST Subject: Re: One Major part is missing...(my answers)... In a message dated 2/2/2001 10:00:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, hart writes: << How long have you practised? **********Since June of 1998 What is the relevance of "innate"? I ask because it is part of your email address. *********I believe in the body's inborn ability to adapt to its surroundings the best way that it can, given whatever circumstances the body's systems are presented with at that time. Poor function=poor adaptation. Since you mentioned cervical disc herniations, how does chiropractic act to reduce herniations? Are there any risks to a patient with identified cervical herniations when receiving adjustments? ************I personally don't do any manual cervical manipulations with disc injuries. I use an instrument called a Vertebral Distraction Pump that separates only the posterior aspects of the cervical vertebra, above and below the injured disc. This separation leads to a hydrostatic pressure change that creates a suctioning affect within the disc and draws the nucleus propulsus back into a more normal position. After this treatment, I adjust the vertebra above with a low force instrument. Do you think that it is possible that cervical manipulation can cause injury to the vertebral arteries as some authorities have claimed? ************Yes with an improper, non-focused adjustment. Very rare though. That's why my malpractice insurance is around $80 a month. If we are getting into risky treatments..... Is it possible to heal problems that don't involve muscles, nerves and bones with chiropractic? *********How? Should children receive chiropractic assessment? *********Absolutely. Ever see the birthing process? You rejected the notion that Elise was made worse by chiropractic care, on what basis would you reject that possibility? *********I didn't reject the notion. I just said I am not convinced that it lead to her long term disability. Who knows what other circumstances surrounded her life at that time. Different nervous disorders can mimic the same thing, as well as a host of other possible causes. You mentioned that you are open-minded and that if you can't help someone that you would direct them elsewhere. What other possible referrals would you consider for someone with persistant neck pain and upper extremity symptoms that you were unable to assist? ********depends on the each patient, their needs, their expectations, where they have already been, etc. What is your position on vaccination? *********don't know enough about it, but I would lean towards non-vaccination. Hear about the MD charged with murder for vaccinating his kid, who later died? Thanks for your interest, Eric and welcome to the list. *********Thank you. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:31:20 -0800 Subject: Re: One Major part is missing... Dr. Ginter, I am sure that you are a "good" chiropractor. But, please consider that there are also "bad" ones. I've met three chiros in my life. They were all different. One was dangerous. The second was honest. The third was also trained in cranial sacral therapy and in my opinion wasn't really practicing chiropractics even though that's what he called himself. I am glad that you don't believe that chiropractics is the answer. It also sounds like you are not "disease oriented" in your approach to helping people. What a relief! >I in no way believe that chiropractic is the answer. I also believe that >each person has to be evaluated separately and each life and lifestyle must >not be overlooked. Often times doctors treat conditions and symptoms rather >than real people with symptoms and conditions. I agree wholeheartedly with you. >Functional problems such as static and awkward postures are no doubt part of >the mix of etiologies. Functional problems can cause structural dysfunctions >and vice versa. I did not have any numbness before I saw the chiropractor. The neck adjustment lead to numbness down my right arm. In this field of helping people with RSI, the first thing we have to do is make agreement with them. > I am also not convinced that the adjustment led to your long term >disability. I am sorry that you feel I was taking some shots at you. >I am not sure I need to prove myself to you, but I feel like you were taking >some shots at me. I am very confident in my skills and my thorough >evaluation of each new patient and their lifestyles. I am open-minded and if >I feel I cannot help them, I will guide them in the right direction. >Anything that a patient can do to correct the cause of a problem is my >ultimate goal for them, whether it is through my help or someone else's. > If you consider yourself an "expert", then consider yourself to be a "student" and learn from people who have personal experience with RSI. >I am an expert, but I do not "think" (as you put it) that I have all the >answers, no one does, not even you. Elise ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 22:19:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Neck problem DR. Chiro, What is the difference between a high velocity "thrust" from a chiro and a Grade 1,2,3, or 4 joint mobilisation from a Therapist? Do Chiro's perform high velocity "thrusts" to the carpal bones? Do Chiro's Rx the carpal bones? Do you perform high velocity "thrusts" to the c-spine for carpal tunnel, DeQuervain's, lateral epicondylitis, piriformis, tendinitis? Just wondering??!! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 22:24:20 -0500 Subject: Re: Neck problem Dr. Chiro....did you see that episode several yrs ago on 20-20 where the reporters took the kid (2 y/o)with a bona fide ear infection around to 20 different chiro's and almost every one of them did not even look in the kids ear, but attempted to manipulate his neck to clear the ear infection? I read that the producers at 20-20 received more mail (prior to the show airing) than ever before from Dr. Chiro's threatening to sue ABC if they aired the show. Did the Chiro Assoc ever sue ABC for airing the show? I didn't get what you meant about Vaccinations not being necessary? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 22:27:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Neck problem Dr. Chiro, You know the one thing that I have always wondered about chiropractic "medicine" is this....it seems that no matter what problem the pnt has when visiting the office (shld pain, neck pain, tennis elbow, etc) the Rx offered by the chiro is the same.....a manipulation. Why is that? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 22:30:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Neck problem Dr. Chiro.....when I was 18 years old I had a back pain (thoracic) and I went to a Chiro. Prior to treating me he had a machine that he touched on the top of my skull in 6 spots. There was a needle on a guage that went up and down as he touched each spot. Then he laid me down on the table and did the manipulations, then back to the machine and touched my skull again and the needles didn't go up as high. What the heck was that all about?? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 10:31:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Neck problem I went to a wonderful Gonstead chriropractor who used such a device. I don't know how it works exactly but this man was able to help me heal my back after I had been told it would be permanent. Say what you want about the less traditional forms of medicine; I have found great relief through them and it's not "in my head." Whatever works, works -- but like anything else, not for everyone. Namaste, Susanne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry R Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2001 10:30 PM Subject: Re: Neck problem > Dr. Chiro.....when I was 18 years old I had a back pain (thoracic) and I > went to a Chiro. Prior to treating me he had a machine that he touched on > the top of my skull in 6 spots. There was a needle on a guage that went up > and down as he touched each spot. Then he laid me down on the table and did > the manipulations, then back to the machine and touched my skull again and > the needles didn't go up as high. What the heck was that all about?? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 22:35:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Neck problem Dr. Chiro, I had a pnt in my clinic the other day with neck pain. She told me she was at the chiro last week. She told me the the Chiro "Dr" had her hold her arm up and she put some vitamins (in a plastic bottle) in her hand and then the Chiro pushed down on her arm real hard and made it go down. Then the chiro put some different bottles in her hand and pushed again, and then again. Finally, she put a bottle in her hand and pushed and her arm would not go down. The chiro told her that she needed to take these vitamins to fix her problem. How the heck does that work? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 22:43:14 EST Subject: Re: Neck problem/Chiros Personally, I feel this thread has gotten way off base. I think it is best left for a school yard, not a support group. I am very interested in chiropractics and I have found some success. By ridiculing chiropractics and those that choose that as a career, in essence one is ridiculing the people that choose that as a form of treatment. FWIW, IMO, ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 09:29:45 EST Subject: Re: Neck problem Chiropractors treat the spine and other joints, not the ear. That's the medics job. I am not saying to not look into the ear, but why so one more doc can see a big red drum? Many times the second cervical joint complex will be compromised, which in turn can irritate the trophic nerve fibers that supply the ear. This can lead to infection. Removal of nervous interference in this manner can help the infection. Thanks... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 21:42:01 -0500 Subject: Chiropractic question Eric, I have always understood (please correct me if I am misinformed) = that there are basically two schools of Chiropractic "medicine". The = first being that the chiropractic hypothesis or philosopy is that = subluxation is the cause of all disease. That is...any type of medical = problem, from MS to bursitis to carpal tunnel syndrome to tumors is = caused by vertebral subluxation. It is my understanding that subluxation = has never been defined by the chiropractic profession in any sort of = manner to even have universal acceptance within the profession itself. = And......chiropractic subluxation is much different than medical = subluxation. A medical subluxation is termed a partial dislocation of = the joint itself and would virtually be a contraindiction for any sort = of spinal "manipulation". Further, the chiropractic profession has not = defined or outlined what disease that any adjustment or correction of a = subluxation might cure. This subluxation theory has no validity in any = universally accepted, peer reviewed, published scientific journal.=20 The second school of Chiropractic is that if you are having back or neck = pain a simple mobilisation of the vertebra, be it an A-P glide or a = rotation will assist the joints with increased motion. I have been in = several McKenzie courses with Chiropracters in attendance and they have = shared with the class their desire to learn more about treatment of the = spine than manipulations. Eric, are you a member of the NACM (Nat'l assoc of Chiropractic = Medicine)? This group essentially rejects (renounces) the medical = "subluxation" theory and accepts the fact that manipulations have = scientific validity simply for affecting joint dysfunction only. Members = of the NACM confine their scope of practice to the treatment of joint = dysfuntion only. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 22:41:12 -0500 Subject: Chiropractic question Eric said....."> That is entirely irrelevant here" Eric, it is relavent because if you are a member of the NACM you reject the chiropractic hypothesis or philosopy that subluxation is the cause of all disease. If you are a member of the NACM you abide by the principles of not exposing your pnts to unnecessary x-rays (14 x 36" full views). If you are a member of NACM you abide by the principles of not having your pnts return for weekly adjustments for the rest of their lives. NACM members do not prescribe worthless and illegal nutrition supplements. The number of people who can benefit from high doses of vitamins is very limited. Moreover, I don't believe that any disease for which megavitamin therapy is actually appropriate falls within the scope of chiropractic. Diseases of this type are seldom appropriate for general medical practitioners either, but are usually treated by medical specialists. Yet many chiropractors prescribe megavitamins to their patients. It is illegal to market supplements for the treatment of disease without FDA approval. It is also unscientific and unethical. I don't know what percentage of chiropractors are involved, but I do know that the companies marketing the supplements advertise repeatedly in chiropractic journals. There is also the issue of insurance claims. I've seen bills for individual modalities that cost $500, $800 or even $1000 for the first Chiropractic visit. Most chiropractic officials are horrified by this, but the Chiropractic "practice-builders" keep on teaching how to charge these fees. Are they part of your profession or aren't they? They claim that thousands of chiropractors attend their seminars and use their services. Some chiropractors pay thousands and thousands of dollars to learn their lessons. Do they throw them away--or use them? If you belong to the NACM you will not practice this on your pnts. Chiropractors generally oppose public health programs such as fluoridation, immunization, and sometimes pasteurization of milk. Chiropractors who belong to NACM reject these positions by the gen'l chiropractic community. That is why Greg asked you about vaccinations. I suspect you answered his concerns. The most disturbing feature of chiropractic is the number of ''success schools" which teach ethically-questionable practices and sometimes outright fraud to be used in practice-building. I'm quite sure you are VERY aware of these situations (practice building courses). Here are a couple of examples: First, is the practice of leading people to believe that vague symptoms common to everyday life are warning signs of serious disease in need of chiropractic care. Second, is the tactic of selling patients on a belief that weekly or monthly "preventive" chiropractic care is needed to insure health(as I mentioned above). Third, is the rehearsal of explanations to recite to patients who have become discouraged in order to keep them returning despite the apparent absence of benefit. The message that the NACM is trying to send is the critical importance of patient trust and practitioner trustworthiness in health care. Chiropractors have a long history of questionable ethics. This is well known by the medical community and amongst Chiropractors. Chiropractors also have a long history of using their superior position in the doctor/patient relationship for exploitation. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 21:38:36 -0700 Subject: harsh words Hi Larry; Please cease and desist from your attacks on Eric DC. As I said before, Sorehanders will judge him (and you) by actions and willingness to help Sorehanders, rather than by claims to superiority. Turf wars are distasteful at best. IMO, Sorehanders benefit from getting a variety of viewpoints about what healing options are available. The kinds of allegations you make below are contrary to netiquette and to Sorehand policies, in my view. Let me remind you of the Wilks vs AMA class action suit, which started in 1976 and ended in 1992: "Evidence at the trial showed that the defendants [the AMA] took active steps, often covert, to undermine chiropractic educational institutions, conceal evidence of the usefulness of chiropractic care, undercut insurance programs for patients of chiropractors, subvert government inquiries into the efficacy of chiropractic, engage in a massive disinformation campaign to discredit and destabilize the chiropractic profession, and engaged in numerous other activities to maintain a medical physician monopoly over health care in this country." "On August 27, 1987, the judge issued a 101İpage opinion finding the AMA guilty of longİterm wrongdoing and illegally attempting to eliminate the chiropractic profession. In September of 1987, the judge issued a permanent injunction against the AMA and all of its members from ever trying to destroy [the] profession through such an illegal boycott again. "On February 7, 1990, the Court of Appeals found the AMA guilty. On November 26, 1990, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the trial court and the Court of Appeals' finding. In January of 1992, the final settlement took place between the AMA and the plaintiffs to complete all terms of the court order, thus ending one of the longest antitrust legal battles in the history of this country..." http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/16/15/14.html I ran a topclick search for AMA vs Chiropractors & this is the first clear account I found -- but the case was a landmark decision that doctors would do anything to protect their own turf -- and have done. The courts have ruled that much of what MDs learned & said about chiros can be described legally as defamation. As for me, I think that WHO the caregiver is, is as important as WHAT discipline the caregiver practices. Some are better than others, in all fields. cheers, Penney ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 08:17:53 -0600 Subject: Re: Neck problem > > She told me the the Chiro "Dr" had her > > hold her arm up and she put some vitamins (in a plastic bottle) in her >hand > > and then the Chiro pushed down on her arm real hard and made it go down. > > Then the chiro put some different bottles in her hand and pushed again, >and > > then again. Finally, she put a bottle in her hand and pushed and her arm > > would not go down. The chiro told her that she needed to take these >vitamins > > to fix her problem. > > How the heck does that work? It doesn't. Applied Kinesiology (which is what this is) is bunk. Well-intentioned bunk but good intentions aren't going to heal you. Sorry to add to the heat when we're trying to get out a slugfest here already, but AK really is an insult to my intelligence, one of the few such things that actually made me angry. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 14:45:23 -0800 Subject: chiropractic has helped me Couldn't help but notice all of the controversy surrounding chiropractic modalities on this list. I just wanted to share, once again, my success story with chiropractic, and in particular, the Carpal Tunnel Injury Center in San Francisco. The question I will pose to any one weighing their options between the "medical establishment" and chiropractors or other alternative practitioners is this: why should we afford greater respect to surgeons who will either gamble with cutting you open (when so many are no better for it) or send you away in pain (saying there is no hope) than someone whose invasion in your body is much less severe who is getting results? Mind you, I do not believe that every chiropractor is great at treating RSI. I invite you to reveiw my story below (posted previously on this list), and call for others to respond who have been helped by chiropractic. I have ready many accounts on this list and elsewhere of people who have had surgery only to be the same or worse off, where I know of few stories of anyone who has been harmed by chiropractors to the degree that surgeons can inflict. Personnally, I am much more willing to try a less invasive technique and see if it will work before going under a blade. Just because the medical establishment validates a modality such a surgery does not mean there is no chance for exploitation. Don't tell me you have never heard of an unneccessary surgery. For me it is results that inspire me to check out these options, not some medical journal or agreement among professionals. The fact that chiropractors engage me in my own healing instead of cutting me open or telling me what to do or take makes me more confident in them. MY STORY: I was diagnosed with lateral epyconditis and what they term "golfer's elbow" in August of 1999. I was treated by my family chiropractor with minimal results for about two weeks after first onset of symptoms, and kept working for about six months. Then my symptoms got really bad and I had to be taken off work, and resumed treatment with same chiropractor, who used mostly polarity modality. I saw him for two months, 3xweekly, with minimal results. Then I found this amazing doctor, at Front Street Chiropractic in San Francisco, who has developed a unique application of chiropractic specifically to treat RSI and carpal tunnel. Most of his patients are injured workers and I feel he really knows how to help us. Within the first two treatments I felt immediate relief, and continued with him for several months of therapy to correct the curve in my spine, finishing up with PT and weight training to improve my strength. His office is litterally an oasis in downtown SF, with soothing fountains and decor, and he provides massage as part of this therapy. Now I am back to work full-time and not in pain. It is amazing! I am so grateful to him. I want to agree with what was said previously about modalities and practitioners being very specific to individuals. Don't give up on a modality if one practitioner doesn't work out for you. If I had, I wouldn't have ever found the doctor who got me out of pain and back to work! Incidentally, he has a great website at www.carpal-tunnel-syndrome.com and he holds free workshops on CTS in SF and does free evaluations. Stacey ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:20:46 -0500 Subject: chiro experience i had an experience with chiropractic which i can only describe as both brief and uncanny. i have had two adjustments. a skeptic, two surprises me. but i had to go back, given this experience: I was seen by Dr. Julie Stimell at 72nd and Broadway (Manhattan) in the Birkam's Yoga Center. I was shown the six-system ideology behind chiro. I was quite skeptical. But I volunteered to predict my own "weakest systems" before she performed any evaluation. I predicted the respiratory system (number Three), without hesitation. But then I swerved toward nervous, number Two, with a stronger impulse. This was my objective analysis, and the rest is either skilled trickery or the makings of a science: I evaluated at System Two being lowest, with System Three also low. System Two was "adjusted". *Immediately I experienced an increase in range of motion and decrease in pain.* And I concurred that "point three" on my neck which identified the system with tightness was now completely, tinglingly released. So I returned. And this time it was "system two" released. At this point I did not feel identifiable improvement in my respiration. However, when Dr. Julie Stimell asserted that "according to the chiropractic model, your ailments are functions of failing systems, of which there are six, and wellness through chiropractic involves releasing the most distressed of these systems over time," I joked that this was good because my asthma medication perscription would lapse soon, so I would prefer much healthier lungs. I was joking then, but have since voluntarily stopped taking the medication with little impact on my overall health. I do not remember believing I would ever leave this medication. I credit Bikram's Yoga much more than chiropractic, but also do believe I received $90 of benefit for $90 of expense. I accept a bit of noise on all aliases but suggest that when you're banging garbage cans you're not really helping. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 05:53:22 -0500 Subject: chiro I would like to strongly encourage everyone to continue the discussion about chiropractic, or at least support its continuation. Some observations: If it were not for the intensity of the exchange, I wouldn't have learned of the chiropractic success stories that some Sorehanders have shared. Perhaps they were posted earlier. I do not recall any sufferers with success stories being sneered at. Let me state early on that I am skeptical about chiropractic. I asked my co-author what we should say about it in our book. She felt (paraphrasing with my words, not hers) it worked for some folks, but sort of gets you hooked on needing adjustments. Not getting much substantive info on the topic, I did not include any commentary on it in the book. I recall now that in his foreword to our book, Dr. Martin Cherniak noted "...the authors wisely avoid the controversies that surround RSI." I was never too sure what he was referring to. Now I think I know. If chiropractic is a substantial remedy for RSI, Sorehand would (will) be ablaze with success stories, but that does not appear to be the case. I think it would be great if it were "the answer," and I'm ready with my pencil when word comes in. When the skeptics among us challenge any purported therapy, we are looking for consistent results. Lots of things seem to help RSI. Anecdotes and philosophies are usually our starting points, but they are just that... starting points. The level of vitriol in the discussion apparently stems from the conviction that many people get terribly taken advantage of at the hands of some practitioners, every kind of practitioner. I share this concern and think the level of inquisition is a healthy thing. RSI patients such as myself are desperate. Stories abound of individuals who need their gullibility meters recalibrated, and frankly, need others to shake some sense or caution into them. (I have a gullible friend, Al, who said he was going to have a custom house built. I told him "Don't do it, the lawyers will get all your money." He built it on a floodplane. The lawyers got all his money.) All of the Al's out there with RSI need people like Larry asking tough, sometimes nasty questions. They need this discussion a lot more than those who are offended by it need the discussion to go away. To quote Lilly Tomlin, "No matter how cynical you are, it's hard to keep up." If Larry's posts were silly, he didn't write the material; sadly, some patient-practitioner experience did. In contrast to the exchange some weeks ago, about pricing of voice recognition software, this thread is most decisively (!) on topic. It is about curing RSI. Like it or not, this is a place where someone can come in with arms waving saying, "Eureka, I've got it." (I probably did.) If they do so without taking the time to first be an observer, that is a price we pay for an open forum. If they do so with no apparent regard for the rules of the road and their foot firmly pressing the "pedal to the metal," they are likely to get what Dr. Ginter got. The alternative is misc.SurgeonsKnowRSI.moderated... a bland newsgroup amassing little useful knowledge. I try to maintain my own focus squarely on the issues of remedying RSI. In that regard, I raise this issue about the success stories. I'm concerned that a consistent theme emerged in most cases: of the four or five positive experiences, it did not appear to me that the success was primarily due to the chiropractic methods, but a mix of techniques that are often recommended on Sorehand. This is a good thing. The issue is, what did chiropractic contribute? Under what circumstances do you recommend it to others? How much should you pay? How often do you need it? One last slightly off-topic item. Other than a couple of respondents who had unfavorable experiences with chiropractic, I've noticed a fairly well split set of opinions regarding the dispute itself, along male/female lines. This is entirely predicted and explained in a book by Deborah Tannen, entitled "You Just Don't Understand." In a nutshell, men and women are conditioned by thousands of years of socialization to clash exactly as we have because we are talking at cross purposes. If you want to appreciate what the other side is saying, get the book. And even if you don't learn to appreciate their view, you can at least understand why you find it so infuriating. Inquisitively, Jack ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:47:28 -0500 Subject: Re: chiro Dear Jack: I was helped tremendously by a Gonstead chiro in the mid-'90s. I had been told that I would have some permanent disability with regard to my back. I found this wonderful guy, Dr. Kirk Shiltz in Brookline, Mass. He was gentle and cautious and within a few months I was fully recovered. Now I also did yoga and accupuncture but w/o the chiro I am sure I wouldn't have done so well. (BTW, in that particular instance,PT did no good at all.) So why haven't I tried chiro for RSI? Well, lots of reasons (most if not all of them money; WC won't pay for it and I haven't worked in 19 months so my shoestring is taut). As for your colleague's statement: "it worked for some folks, but sort of gets you hooked on needing adjustments." I am not hooked on adjustments. In fact, I haven't had one in probably seven years. I agree that a multidisciplinary approach toward RSI works best, that there is no single "answer." I also agree that discussion is healthy, but, IMO, healthy discussion avoids vitriol. Anyway, I always enjoy your thoughtful posts. Namaste, Susanne
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